East vs West Sign Wave and Demonstration


Click for 3TV Video

Click for 3TV Video

Friday’s  upcoming “East vs West” demonstration is shaping up to be CameraFRAUD’s largest yet, with a record number of RSVPs from members valleywide.

Members and visitors are also encouraged to stop by to sign the new ballot initiative outlawing photo enforcement in Arizona!

The event involves two locations (67th Ave & 101, US-60 & Longmore) which are competing to see which side of town is “most serious about bringing the cameras down.”

Friendly, competitive trash-talking between the two teams has turned guerrilla, with one side actually trying to court radio stations to come cover their event, and the other side rumored to be encouraging internet-based viral marketing to pump up their numbers.

Amazingly, the current number of RSVPs are TIED for both sides of town at 82 each:

West Side: 72 Yes, 10 Maybe, Total 82 (RSVP for West Side here)
East Side: 45 Yes, 37 Maybe, Total 82 (RSVP for East Side here)
Grand Total: 164  (As of Jan 15 09 @ 4:30 PM)

89 Responses to East vs West Sign Wave and Demonstration

  1. Steve says:

    Speaking of doing things illegal I believe breaking and entering is considered an illegal act. Acts that might qualify under that might be umm… I dont know breaking into American Traffic Solutions corporate offices to take pictures. You want to talk media lets talk to the media about that, and not just the media the scottsdale police, the maricopa county sherrifs department and the Department of Public Safety. The only scam going on in arizona is you jokers from camera fraud.com. How can you speak of an invasion of privacy, you are on a public road?? The cameras are not in your home they are not in your office, hell they arent even in your car. If you are stupid enough to break the law a stupid picture of you knuckle deep in your nose and a $200.00 fine is the least you should get. Let me explain to you something about liberty and justice, it only works if everyone participates. You liberal whiney idiots are the reason this country is declining the way it is. Can I let you in on a little secret? Come closer, just a little closer… STOP BREAKING THE LAW!!!! If you truly want to get rid of these companies that are making money off of stupid people that cant read a speed limit sign or apparently are color blind and dont have the mentality to slow down on yellow and stop on red its as easy as this and I know it sounds repetative…. STOP BREAKING THE LAW!!!!!! I pray that one day one of you idiots who participates in you little website are in a car accident that is not your fault, there are no witnesses, its your word against the other drivers and there is a Photo enforcement camera at that intersection. Oddly enough you would be the one going to the Photo enforcement company requesting the video of the accident to prove you where not in the wrong and your lawsuit will be proven by these cameras that ” Are a fraud”. Find something better to do with your time like take a drivers education class or grow a brain.

    A concerned citizen of Arizona for the stoppage of other stupid arizonans

  2. duece says:

    I wonder how many accidents were caused by all the lawbreakers distracting motorists by holding these signs? You people should do something productive with your time. Gp pick up trash…dont you people have to work?

  3. Mike says:

    Haha! Sounds like the good folks at ATS and Redflex are getting a little nervous. And we’re starting to get some law makers on our side too. Keep up the good work guys! Hopefully I’ll see you tomorrow!

  4. No One says:

    Steve– thanks for wishing an accident on me. That doesn’t seem very safety-conscious, now does it? But, I suppose it’s still a free country, so you aren’t breaking the law by wishing me ill will. But speaking of “not breaking the law”– please take that issue up with Redflex. As anyone ho has taken 10 seconds with Google can tell you, they have had any number of times when they were on the wrong side of the law.

    About the only thing I agree with you on is when you stated “Let me explain to you something about liberty and justice, it only works if everyone participates.”— you’re absolutely right there, unfortunately it’s the camera companies and the government that bowed out of this time.

  5. Doc Holladay says:

    Odd… no mention of House Bill 2106 on this site?

  6. Doc Holladay says:

    Allow me to edit… HB 2106 was referenced in the Republic, so it is likely referenced incorrectly… go figure.

    My comment is in reference to Rep. Crump’s introduction of a House Bill to remove highway speed cameras, “My constituents tell me they find that photo radar to be intrusive, they find it to be annoying and in many cases they find it to be dangerous.”

    Crump’s bill will hit a roadblock. The state has a two-year contract with Redflex, the company that runs the photo radar camera’s and could have to pay some hefty fees to break the contract.

    “If that’s the case, I would like to look at some remedies, where we might reduce the fine, leave them (cameras) in place for the term of the contract until we can get out of it without costs to the state, without penalty.” said Crump.

    If the state can’t get out of the contract, Crump said he will push to reduce the fine to as low as $30, the cost paid out to Redflex on each citation.

    The bill is being backed by representatives Andy Biggs and Rich Crandall.

    In a surprising statement to reporters Representative Biggs tells motorists not to pay the “Notice of Violation”.

    “You don’t have to respond to a notice of violation, it’s not a citation,” he said.

    Biggs does warn that once the notice of violation is officially served, it does become a citation and the driver cited will then have to also pay the server’s fee. Representative Biggs said a small amount of the notice of violations are actually served.

    The bill will not impact cameras used on city streets, according to Crump.

    Crump said he expects the bill will pass. If it does not he will push to place the issue on the November ballot.

    Reference: ABC15 news 15Jan2009

  7. glyphhunter says:

    @Steve:

    Someone broke into American Traffic System’s corporate offices and took pictures? Wow, I gotta meet that guy!

  8. J.W. says:

    The words out guys and gals. I overheard a clerk and a customer at the Apple store in Gilbert giving Kudos to Camerafraud.com earlier this evening. From the sound of their conversation they were both anxious to sign the petition. I have yet to overhear a positive conversation about the speed camera in public. We are the majority. Death to ALL Scameras.

  9. Doc says:

    Holladay- 1st, HB2106 needs to be modified as I’ve stated before. Not including ALL scameras without specific civil protections in place is toothless. 2nd, I believe there’s a link to a copy of the actual contract on this site. 3rd HB2210 will clearly tell you how the money is divvied up & how the state gave itself a provision to back out of the contract un scathed. Now, I’m not a contract lawyer, but I do believe the legislature might have had an inkling this kinda thing would occur. Which would explain the release clause. So, even if HB2106 passes, in it’s present form, that should only motivate all of us here @ cameraFRAUD.com to continue the signature process, to rid the citizens of ALL scameras!!! Right On, J.W.!!!

    Remember…F R E E D O M ! ! !-Doc from Prescott

  10. RC says:

    i like peanut butter.

  11. Freedom From The Flash says:

    Breaking In to ATS? Is it breaking in when you walk in the front doors during business hours? If the Secretary at the front desk dosen’t want her picture taken, she shouldn’t be working for a company that takes others’ pictures. SIMPLE !

  12. 4409 says:

    BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!!!!!!

    Steve and Duece We have been waiting foe quite sometime for the photo surbeillance fraud companies to stop breaking the law. As of today they still are continuing Fraud on the people!

    We will in the end put them in checkmate, it’s only a matter of time and we have plenty of that as you seem to think Duece,

    See, while you’re watching American Idol and drinking fluoride we are making signs and [u]niting the People!

    ATS and Redflex you took one and we will take All!

    .

  13. PhotoRadarScam says:

    Do you really trust Redflex? http://PhotoRadarScam.com/trust.php
    As others have mentioned, they have no problem breaking the law and falsifying documents.

    “…liberty and justice, it only works if everyone participates.”

    How come commercial vehicles are exempt from getting served photo citations? And of course the millions of others that are also exempt from photo enforcement. If not everyone can participate, they need to come down.

    And privacy? Your view is so myopic. Try expanding your horizons at http://PhotoRadarScam.com/privacy.php

  14. Joe says:

    Steve said:
    “You liberal whiney idiots are the reason this country is declining the way it is.”

    Who you calling “liberal”?

    I’m a conservative. A conservatrive who enjoyes LIBerty.

    If only the LIBerals like Napolitano embraced LIBerty, things would be a lot better.

  15. Joe says:

    Steve signs:
    “A concerned citizen of Arizona for the stoppage of other stupid arizonans”

    Or:

    A Redflex employee CONCERNED that he has no future with an Australian company that will immediately shut-down once either the bill or the ballott initiative passes. CONCERNED he’ll be out of a job.

    You can try shouting us down bub, but you’ll never drown us out. I’m guessing that Redflex management is encouraging you to take to the internet on company time to help “manage” the perception of public outcry. Redflex, it is not going to work. We are many. You are few.

  16. Steve says:

    To Freedom from the flash, Arent you against the cameras because they are an invasion of privacy? You took pictures of a receptionist in her place of work, sounds kind of hipocritical doesnt it? As for the idiot who made the statement that I work for Redflex, wrong on that one. I am a personal banker with JPMorgan Chase, I just 100% agree with placing the cameras to catch you idiots that cant use a speedometer. Oddly enough the only people who have problems with the cameras are the idiots who have receieved tickets. I hope all of you would go back and read your emails and just listen to yourselves. Every statement is the epitamy of hipocracy. Again like I said many times in my previous post you guys can save yourselves a whole lot of time and money and get rid of these companies by on easy tiny simple little things, STOP BREAKING THE LAW. If there where no idiots out there who dont understand a speed limit sign the cameras would not be around. I am from Boise ID where people dont drive like complete morons and its kind of weird because we dont have cameras there. Maybe its just a stupid Arizonan thing, maybe the sun has just fried all of your brains.. hmm…. that would explain alot.

  17. AA says:

    Steve says : “I am from Boise ID”. “I am a personal banker”.

    That explains so much, You already work in an industry that has had a hand in financialy bankrupting this nation, why not throw your support behind an industry trying to bankrupt our freedoms too?

    By the way, smart personal banker, it’s “epitome of hypocrisy”. Now go ruin someone’s retirement plans.

  18. guttersn1pe says:

    Steve – there will always be people, like yourself, who don’t understand or don’t agree with the issues we’re fighting against. That’s ok. There’s no need to resort to name calling.

    As for myself – I don’t always drive the speed limit. I also believe in the “reasonable and prudent” philosophy. There are times in a 65 zone that it’s completely safe to drive 75. There are also times in a 65 zone (perhaps when it’s raining, snowing, etc.) that it’s not safe to even drive the limit. It’s called judgment. It’s not something you can put on a speed limit sign. It’s something an officer has and a camera doesn’t.

    Also – we all break the law. I guarantee that every day you, me, or anyone else hits the road, we more than likely break some traffic law. So the “stop breaking the law” is a little over the top. Just this morning I probably failed to signal for a lane change a couple times. No one died or was injured (or probably even noticed).

    And yes, I have received a photo ticket. A ticket that someone at Redflex had, under penalty of perjury, confirmed was me. The problem – it wasn’t me (wrong age, race, hair and eye color, height, weight and a couple other things). This is an error that wouldn’t happen if an officer had made the traffic stop and issued a citation. Yet it was something I had to deal with because the system is prone to errors – both human and machine.

    This may seem like a trivial issue to you. Many people are willing to give away their freedom bits at a time. I, for one, am not. This is government clearly overstepping its bounds. It’s all for profit – a fair share of which is shipped off to a foreign company.

  19. I'm Back says:

    Good post Guttersn1pe. Steve will most likely ignore all the logic and salient ideas you put forth and revert to his flawed logic and weak arguments. Oh well, we can’t save them all.

  20. Brent says:

    I agree with Guttersnipe…

    Folks, this issue is really simple: These tickets are unconstitutional.

    That alone is enough reason to end this.. and there are more logical arguments beyond that, but in the end the first argument is enough for logic to prevail..

  21. Joe says:

    Steve wrote:

    “I am a personal banker with JPMorgan Chase”

    You mean customer service rep. Name it anything you like. Call centers are call centers.

  22. Joe says:

    Steve says:

    “I am from Boise ID where people dont drive like complete morons”

    Steve, get in your car and drive around a bit. The USA is an equal opportunity moron factory. If you’ve got an anger management problem, it’s likely you brought it along with you from Boise. Perhaps it’s the potatoes?

  23. I'm Back says:

    One more thought. I had a promotions job that required me to drive all over the country for most of 2005. I can’t say that I noticed anywhere that people drove better than anywhere else.
    Big trucks will still take the shoulder and let you pass in TX, although that’s not as common as it used to be. The folks in CA will always yield to your lane changes as long as you step on the gas while you do it.

    AZ doesn’t really have any better or worse driving than anywhere else. I will rip on “my state” for bad leadership, somewhat terrible weather for 5 months out of the year, under-funded schools and a poor/limited job market. The driving never has been a problem. Bitterness is just bitterness, no matter where you live. -RT

  24. John says:

    Red light Cameras coming to Cedar Rapids, IA?
    Meeting rescheduled due to weather to Thurday Jan 22
    Press release by the police department.
    =======
    For Immediate Release: Tuesday, January 6, 2009

    Contact: Sgt Cristy Hamblin
    Phone: 319-286-5439
    E-mail: c.hamblin@cedar-rapids.org

    Red Light Camera Open House

    The public encouraged to attend an Open House for the Red Light Cameras that are being purchased by the City of Cedar Rapids. There will be two opportunities for the public to view and better understand what red light cameras are and how they work. The two open houses are set for Tuesday, January 13, 2009 at 6:30 – 8:00 pm at Harding Middle School, 4801 Golf St NE and on Thursday, January 15, 2009, at 6:30 – 8:00 pm at Taft Middle School, 5200 E Ave NW. The presentation will in the auditorium of each school.

    A red light camera vendor has not been selected at this time. The City has been looking at purchasing and installing red light cameras for some time. The purpose of the red light cameras is not to replace officers but to enhance public safety and to change driver behavior. You are more likely to be killed in an angle crash than a rear end collision. By installing red light cameras at high risk intersections, these angle crashes have been proven to be reduced. It also reduces overall crashes at these intersections and therefore changing driver behavior.

    A short presentation and an opportunity to ask questions will be given during this time. There will staff from the Cedar Rapids Police Department and Traffic Engineering available to provide feedback.
    ========

    I recently moved to the Cedar Rapids, IA area. Any help from you in providing printable flyers to pass out and links to other similarly minded anti Scam cam individuals in IOWA.

    john at stopscamcam@yahoo.com

  25. Joe says:

    I’ve never had a serious problem with RLC’s as they ARE deployed for the purposes of safety and modifying the future behavior of habitual red-light runners.

    I do have a problem with speed cameras that are deployed merely for the purposes of revenue collection.

  26. erika says:

    Hey…thanks for holding up traffic on the freeway. I love when it takes forever to get home. On the bright side, no one got caught speeding since they were all going five miles an hour to gawk at you idiots waving signs.

    You do realize that standing up there isn’t going to do anything, right?

  27. Ashley says:

    Thanks for making my commute so much longertoday. It was great. I love taking my time to get home after a 10 hour day. Don’t you all have jobs???

  28. AA says:

    Let me get this straight. We have two commenters “erika” and “Ashley” complaining about the time it took them to get home when the protesters are trying to rid our freeways of devices that theoretically make people drive slower? Is the illogical stand you’re taking even apparent to you at all? You took that precious time to come to this site, click on the appropriate link, and type those comments? I’m betting that took you just as much time as getting past the protest.

  29. AA says:

    And I should have been one of those people holding you up, but our beloed beaurocratic government screwed up my Spring semester classes, so I had to spend *MY* time scrambling to fix another government snafu. Sure wish I had been there so I could have waved at you.

  30. MC says:

    I’m with Ashley and Erika, thanks for screwing up my commute for a second time. This easily added an additional 20 minutes to my commute home tonight. I’m not a fan of the cameras, but these protests have had a more substantial impact on my life then the cameras themselves. I actually have a shorter commute time now, thanks to the increase in the speed limit on I-10. And posting this did not take anywhere near 20 minutes.

  31. RC says:

    Hmmmmm I wonder how long it takes for the posts against the rally turn into posts about the love of peanut butter?

  32. dgpjr777 says:

    Yep I agree another traffic jam caused by protesters. Isn’t it ironic how they think they are helping matters. Keep the cameras !

  33. Ron says:

    ***Wow, alot of REDFLEX EMPLOYEES are putting up “commuting” posts tonight..

  34. dgpjr777 says:

    Wrong Ron, just people getting sick of the traffic jams caused by you guys.

  35. AA says:

    Traffic jams? During rush hour? Caused by monthly protests? OH MY GOD, THESE PEOPLE ARE EXERCISING THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS AND IT’S MAKING MY COMMUTE LONGER!!!

    For people who accuse protesters of whining, you sure are whining a lot.

    Cameras go away, there aren’t any protests. Simple solution.

  36. Ron says:

    Dgpjr: God forbid we use our first amendment rights to defend the sixth amendment which is being grossy abused by foreign-owned Redflex..

    Its amazing how many ‘sheeple’ will object to their commute being 10 minutes longer as a group of demostrators work against the government continuing away to chip away at our freedoms.. We are happy to demonstrate for your rights also- even if you’re too asleep to see what happening…

  37. I'm Back says:

    I agree, they are sheeple. I hate using or seeing others use that term, but it seems so appropriate now that the government rules the people instead of the other way around.

    If 20 minutes of being held up ruins your day, I think you should take a step back and think about what’s important. Allow yourself to think about living somewhere that the people don’t, or worse yet, aren’t allowed to question their elected officials decisions and law-making.

    That’s a world I don’t want to live in. It’s too bad that you can’t look past a petty inconvenience. If you did, you’d realize that there are still people in this country, despite all the distractions thrown our way, that care about preserving our freedoms and our Constitution, which is still the greatest document ever written by man.

  38. well if all your worried about is a couple of minutes that you had to spend in traffic ,

    then I hope you went and got some fast food to complete your day of zombification .

    hurry home and turn on that brainwash box for further conditioning .

    you are in the very small minority of people who complain about freedom and cheer for
    your own rights to be violated .
    very strange .dont you know what country you live in .

  39. Hans says:

    Great job everyone! As far as the banker guy goes. I rest my case by just reading and watching the news. I saw my 401K totally disappear by the bankers. CameraFraud is a wonderful example of exercising freedoms and the complete understanding of what this nation the greatest nation on earth. It is people like CameraFraud who continue to keep people like Steve free without Steve even understanding why he has his freedoms.
    I thank CameraFraud for maintain the checks and balances that are required to keep this nation strong. Great work folks!

  40. j says:

    a few people saying they spent 5 extra minutes on the freeway friday(probably worried about their jobs). there were plenty of cars beeping there support when i was signing the petition). i’m ready to stand outside the mall or grocery store collecting signatures. good work guys!

  41. Derkins says:

    Granted, people are morons for insisting on stopping and HAVING to stare at some stupid protest going on, slowing down traffic, but the protest is far more obnoxious than a few speed cameras. Think about how many cumulative man-hours you guys wasted of peoples’ time. Think about how many people may have been made late for something important at a time when traffic is NEVER that bad, even on the crowded 60. Peaceably assembling does not equal OBNOXIOUSLY assembling. If a few friends and I were to stand on the street outside your house and block your driveway with a protest, making you an extra 20 minutes late for work, you wouldn’t be so happy then.

    Speed cameras are stupid and a blatant cash grab by our floundering municipal and state governments, but they WILL reduce speeds and will reduce emissions as a result. Seen that gross brown cloud over our city? Plus, damn it, our governments NEED THE MONEY, since they’re even considering cutting complete essentials like education budgets right now.

    Your protests are worthless, too, by the way. They’re not going to do anything. The cameras will continue to go up regardless of what a small group blabbers on about- they will only come down once the majority decides they don’t like them and hate them enough to protest. The majority didn’t do that with the 101 cameras, and I sure doubt they’ll do it now. If anything, you’re annoying far more people than you’re actually convincing to think about your cause. Did you ever think about that?

  42. I'm Back says:

    Derkins would like to forfeight his 1st Amendment rights. Please mark that down.

  43. me says:

    quit talking about rights when I always get censored here.

  44. I'm Back says:

    😥

  45. Ian says:

    You people are the USDA prime choice idiots. I’ve never been appalled by the number of idiots in support of this cause. That is except those who are singing the same tune that I’m about to sing.

    guttersn1pe:
    Here’s a little problem with your logic, “reasonable and prudent,” however your comments are correct. But, those are your own thoughts. Not on the behalf of the rest of the American population. There is a large percentage of the American public that are complete idiots that don’t know what “reasonable and prudent” is.

    Pat yourself on the back for at the least knowing what “reasonable and prudent” is. Here’s a thought: Why do they call it “common sense” when the majority don’t have common sense? That would basically render your comments of people being “reasonable and prudent” invalid and only focused on yourself.

    I have seen situations where 75 mph on a 35 mph road is perfectly safe, but only in the perfect world. There are kids that have less of a mind than yours and run out unexpectedly. You drive 35 mph for a friggin’ reason: Can you stop in the same distance at 35 mph when going 75? NO! Much worse, your response time has just hit that kid doing 75 and did maximum overkill. It’s about basic physics that absolutely rules your logic of being “reasonable and prudent” invalid. That is the major reason why speed limits are set. To keep your ass safe from your own ass and everybody/thing around you.

    Driving is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT.

    The U.S. Constitution/Bill of Rights and State Constitution are merely documents that specifically states what the government can do or can’t do. It does NOT give any one of us any rights. That’s why Corporate America can do what they want (hint: they’re not government).

    It is also NOT in the constitution where it specifically states “The government is not allowed to establish speeding limits [so idiots can be idiots].” Therefore, the government can establish measures to control that.

    Just be f’ing grateful that you’re able to drive, period. 65 mph or 75 mph who the hell cares? You’re getting places at your own free will.

    Sure, I go over the speed limit by 5 every once in a while, but I’m not being a cry baby like the rest of y’all getting tickets for something YOU CHOSE TO DO! Nobody forced you guys to speed. You GOT CAUGHT. It’s only a crime unless you get caught.

    If you get photographed by a stationary camera… wow, what an idiot you must be. Whatever happened to keeping your eyes on the road and maintaining a reasonable speed? Those things snap you if you’re going 11+. Come on folks.

    I have gotten a couple tickets. I went to traffic school just like every other infraction makers. But, I’m not whining about it like the rest of you guys are on this website.

    In conclusion, here’s a solution to those photo radars or speeding radars…. GO THE @#$& SPEED LIMIT and you’re ALL good for God’s sake. If you or anybody else don’t get snapped, the state makes no money then the project would have been a total waste of money. But no, people just HAVE to be idiots. Good, so I can pay less taxes.

    I work for the government. I pay the government back the money I get paid in taxes. I get paid crappy. I’m not complaining. The least I’d like to see is that those idiots who HAVE to be idiots, get ticketed so they can keep the taxes for the law-abiding citizens’ taxes lower.

  46. Helldigger says:

    “Driving is a PRIVLIDGE and not a right.”

    On the other hand, the bill or rights and the constitution guarantee a few things in a court of law.

    The right to face your accuser for instance.

    Because Photo Radar is relegated to Civil Court, your 4th amendment right to face your accuser is denied. A camera cannot accuse you of anything.

    How about your right to expectation?
    Ever hear of that?

    Citizens expect their government to treat them fairly.
    In the Kangaroo Court of Photo radar, your expectations are violated.
    The Judge works for the state who pays his salary. Because the state profits from a Photo radar Ticket, it creates a conflict of interest. The Judge loses the ability to meet your expectation.

    The prosecutor at Photo Radar Scam Court, has only one job, to use what ever means possible to get you to plead guilty before you see the judge.

    The ticket you get in the mail is designed to intimidate you into signing your right to service away and to rat out someone else if it is not you in the photo.

    YOU have no responsibility to do so, but most people are afraid not to.

    So we have rights, regardless of what activity we are engaged in. But where Photo Radar comes into play, the State makes the rules and they are not in your favor.

    Its not about speeding, its about justice. Its not about Safety, its about Revenue.

    Because the government can’t practice fiscal responsibility, it churns out this kind of farce to fill its coffers.

    But I wouldn’t expect idiots who love photo radar to understand concepts about rights that are far far over their head.

  47. Ian says:

    Helldigger:
    You’re not given rights to anything, PERIOD. You’re entitled. There’s a difference.

    Rights is just an illusion that has been implanted in peoples’ minds to give them a sense of control. Control is just purely an illusion.

    Once again, did I not make myself clear: If it’s not about speeding, if it’s not about safety, then if it’s about revenue: Here’s a simple solution, don’t speed. You don’t get caught. As a result, you don’t have to give the state any money. If the state isn’t making any money on this, then they will have no choice but shut it down because there’s something in Accounting 101 called costs versus benefit. If the costs are higher than benefit, then it becomes a loss. Losses usually get cut off in time. Problem solved. A whole lot less whining about the MAN sticking his fingers in your personal lives. Its not like the MAN is following you everywhere every foot on the road you drive on.

    It’s the same principle of why the economy falters. Economics 101 simply defines a slump in economic performance as a result to the reduced spending of money. This forced the government to cough up all this money that it’s taken from us from all these years. Thats an indirect way to force the government to do something the people need. Unfortunately, the people are too stupid to step up and demand specific things of the government. Like full accountability of the flow of bailout funds or the demand to practice fiscal responsibility?

    So, back to the point, simply don’t speed where there are cameras. You don’t get caught and you don’t have to pay anything. They give you AMPLE distance where the warning signs are to the actual cameras “Photo Enforced Zones.” Which brings me back to my original post where I said, whatever happened to keeping your eyes on the road and actually paying attention to driving?

    If you have to argue this crap consistently, maybe you shouldn’t drive if you’re so paranoid about getting snapped, or maybe you need to slow down a bit. Or, leave earlier.

    You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.

    All you’re saying, helldigger, is that you want zero accountability for your own actions. You just want somebody else to blame for your own actions that nobody else but yourself chose to do.

    If your face is on that ticket to the exact SAME car that you own, you sped, got caught, what contest do you have? None. GUILTY as charged. Man up, own it. Move on.

    On another thought: If you were able to overthrow this, that means all crimes solved by survelliance would have to be re-evaluated and potentially releasing some of the worst people back into society. Then we’d have you to thank just because people like you, helldigger, want to have zero accountability.

  48. Uncle Slam says:

    Hey Derkins,

    Where do you live? I won’t block your driveway to make you late for whatever important gig you’re headed to, but I’d like to sit outside your home with my camera. Then, whenever you do anything objectionable, I’ll snap a photo of it and send you a “ticket”. You can either pay me $160 or so, or spend some of your oh-so-valuable time arguing against me in court. What do you say? Think a bit deeper about the ramifications about photo radar and your rights before you moan about being held up in traffic.

  49. Helldigger says:

    Ian,

    “Rights is just an illusion that has been implanted in peoples’ minds to give them a sense of control. Control is just purely an illusion.”

    Yes you have an illusion that Photo radar is about “not speeding”. However the implant in your mind succumbs to ignorance, I prefer to be at cause over my environment.

    “Here’s a simple solution, don’t speed.”

    We agree on that point. If you don’t speed, you don’t get caught. When the state engineers Traps, such as the one on Loop 101 west bound at 35th Ave, then your argument ends in the toilet where it belongs.

    When Police departments reduce the intersection target area and lower yellow light timing to the legal minimum, to increase the number of tickets generated, your arguments become irrelevant.

    When the courts are rigged and deny you due process and a fair trial, then your arguments ooze stupidity.

    “ If the state isn’t making any money on this, then they will have no choice but shut it down because there’s something in Accounting 101 called costs versus benefit.”

    That is part of our strategy, first, never sign and send in a mailed citation, force the state to hire someone to serve you. When everyone does that, it reduces their income.

    Second; always fight your ticket in court. Force the state to prove their case, make it a big deal, subpoena witnesses from the camera company to prove foundation, take as much time as you need to demand your rights to face your accuser and call expert witnesses on Lasers, radar, photo technology and law enforcement officers. The longer you take in court the better.

    This overwhelms the court system and takes the profit out of the program. When that happens, they will come down.

    “ Unfortunately, the people are too stupid to step up and demand specific things of the government. Like full accountability of the flow of bailout funds or the demand to practice fiscal responsibility? “

    That’s a good point, the general population does not demand accountability and that is how the state forced this upon us.

    “ They give you AMPLE distance where the warning signs are to the actual cameras “Photo Enforced Zones.” Which brings me back to my original post where I said, whatever happened to keeping your eyes on the road and actually paying attention to driving? “

    National studies prove that the net effect of photo enforcement is a net increase in accident rates, property damage and loss of life. Often there is no “AMPLE” distance from the signs, and some signs are obscured from view.

    Try again.

    “If you have to argue this crap consistently, maybe you shouldn’t drive if you’re so paranoid about getting snapped, or maybe you need to slow down a bit. Or, leave earlier.”

    I have not received a speeding ticket, so your inference is invalid.

    “All you’re saying, helldigger, is that you want zero accountability for your own actions. You just want somebody else to blame for your own actions that nobody else but yourself chose to do.”

    I have no speeding tickets so your assumption is completely off base in fact I am responsible for my own actions at all times and I am not blaming anyone for what happens to me.

    “If your face is on that ticket to the exact SAME car that you own, you sped, got caught, what contest do you have? None. GUILTY as charged. Man up, own it. Move on.”

    If the state changes engineering practices in order to increase citation count and increase their revenue and I am entrapped, then by your own standard, I must be accountable for my own actions and prove my case to their satisfaction and have my citation dismissed.

    “On another thought: If you were able to overthrow this, that means all crimes solved by survelliance would have to be re-evaluated and potentially releasing some of the worst people back into society.”

    As a matter of fact some municipalities were proven to alter the yellow phase below ADOT standards and all the tickets paid had to be refunded. That would be great in Arizona when it is proven this is a scam, all money be refunded and all citations be erased from the records.

    If you are going to cry about accountability, then at least make an argument with merit.

  50. Ian says:

    Helldigger:

    I have been pulled over about 20 or 30 times, ticketed each time, because I drive a Miata with a 302 Cobra V8 in it. You can see where this is going.

    I have had only two tickets that stuck. That was from when I was much younger when I started driving. The third ticket and on after I got enlightened, I started fighting my tickets and got out of every single one of them since, 10 years later. This shows that I am no longer ignornant. I understand how the system works. I work for the government in a very high position. I understand the politics involved and how money corrupts it. I’m not going to assume, but basing on your comments, you understand what is going on as well.

    We need to understand that we’re probably fighting the same cause, but I’m doing it differently by avoidance. You’re dealing it with confrontation. By avoidance, I don’t have to deal with all that you have to deal with in confrontation. Maybe you enjoy the confrontation method more than I do. Maybe you like a bit more complications in your life than I do. I understand exactly what is happening here. I just CHOOSE to use the avoidance method. You chose to do the confrontation method. Do what works for you. Everybody’s different. One way or the other, it works for me. I just avoid. No ticket, the state gets no money from me. Your cause is satisfied, you’re just bashing on me for the method I’m approaching it with and calling me an ignorant person, WTH is that?

    Ever watch the show called Speeders on the TruTV channel? There is probably no way that you can control the kind of behavior you see on that show. There are so many contributing factors to people being idiots. Alcohol plays a big role. Machoness, plays a big role. Kids being stupid contribute to it in a big way. The kids part, credit card companies prey on our youth because of their lack of understanding of the system. Same strategy.

    I am only offering a mere and simiple solution that the GENERAL PUBLIC can understand and not some dude like yourself acting like a rocket scientist offering a complicated solution to your average simple person. When you work in tech-support, you will see what I’m talking about. The solution is… oh my gosh… don’t speed. I think the general public can understand that, not all that mumbo jumbo about getting a lawyer, and going on fighting a fight that might give them a pretty crappy chance of winning. Especially, when they may be so simplified that they don’t even want to deal with it. Free will. You can’t control that. Simple solutions for the simple folks. Your cause is justified when you have a majority of the simple folks doing the simple thing by not speeding, then the photo radars come down. At that point, you can do whatever you damn well please.

    I’m a programmer, I program a lot of systems. You cannot program a system to be idiot-proof. Only idiot-resistant.

    I’m not too hot about the idea of photo radar either, I pass it EVERY single day going to work. I pass an exact number of 12 stationary photo radar units, 13 or 14 when there’s a DPS mobile unit and the City of Tempe mobile unit on the way to work (one way). I have NEVER gotten snapped. Never seen a letter in the mail citing me of speeding or red light running.

    I don’t appreciate you calling me ignorant. It’s a matter of choice. You should be praising my efforts for NOT contributing to the cause by NOT speeding. I CHOSE to not speed because it complicates my life less not to even have to take time out of my busy schedule to have to deal with this B.S. to begin with. If it works for you to get snapped and fight it, suit yourself. The ignorant ones are the ones getting snapped, and paying their tickets without fighting it. The system is set up so it’s convenient for people to just pay it and move on with their lives. I get the game the state is playing here. I’m not stupid. I work for the state, I know. I wouldn’t be in the position where I am if I didn’t understand how the State plays its games.

  51. Helldigger says:

    Ian,

    “I don’t appreciate you calling me ignorant.”

    Funny from one who writes “You people are the USDA prime choice idiots. I’ve never been appalled by the number of idiots in support of this cause.”

    If you don’t like being called ignorant, then stop being ignorant.

    “I have been pulled over about 20 or 30 times, ticketed each time, because I drive a Miata with a 302 Cobra V8 in it.”

    I have never been pulled over in Arizona by a police officer, I moved here in 1982. If you got pulled over 30 times, then that is a good indication of how you drive. It sounds like speed isn’t your problem; maybe erratic unsafe practices could be more indicative. Photo cameras can’t pull you over, that’s a major point in this scam. The police look for drivers who practice bad driving skills. That is the reason you get pulled over. When cameras are only looking for speed, people like you who drive unsafely get a pass.

    “We need to understand that we’re probably fighting the same cause, but I’m doing it differently by avoidance. You’re dealing it with confrontation. By avoidance, I don’t have to deal with all that you have to deal with in confrontation.”

    Avoiding a state mandated revenue scam is exactly why we have it in the first place. I am not advocating speeding; the opposite is true. I don’t speed but I could be tricked into a ticket through the deception the state has set up.

    My neighbor has 4 adult children, all have received at least 1 ticket at the 101 E bound at 35th Ave. His kids weren’t drunk, weren’t being Macho and weren’t being stupid or unsafe, they simply got trapped in the scam.

    The speed limit decreases to 55 from 65 but the signage is deficient, as documented on this site repeatedly. My neighbor faced1350.00 in fines. He wasn’t driving the vehicles, and was going to just pay the fines. That is avoidance. I made him aware of the scam and helped him understand how to confront the system and every one of those tickets have been dismissed.

    “I am only offering a mere and simiple solution that the GENERAL PUBLIC can understand and not some dude like yourself acting like a rocket scientist offering a complicated solution to your average simple person.”

    It is simple, don’t speed, I agree on hat point, but when you are entrapped, it is an entirely different matter. When the courts are rigged, it changes the landscape.

    “ It’s a matter of choice. You should be praising my efforts for NOT contributing to the cause by NOT speeding.”

    Good for you, you get a gold star.

    “Traffic rules account for most of the contact by average citizens with law enforcement and the courts. Enforcement of laws which are widely perceived as unreasonable and unfair generates disrespect and even contempt toward those who make and enforce those laws.”

    The Appellate Department, in People vs. Goulet

  52. No One says:

    Ian-

    If everyone took the position you did, that would be great and the cameras would take care of themselves– but that’s probably not going to happen, if it did begin to happen they’d just put up more traps have the cameras catch increasingly minor infractions to make up the difference. Even if it did happen and there were no changes to the system, it would be a long and protracted attrition, they wouldn’t disappear overnight.

    Meanwhile, as long as there are both people and cameras on the road, the cameras will go off on some of them. When it does, we’re talking about sophisticated systems doing all sorts of calculations- millions of lines of code doing everything from calculations of speed on the front end to the OCR and facial recognition software doing interpretation of images: and as you yourself should know, it is impossible to perform 100% error detection when the variables input into the system are as variable and as uncontrollable as the ones are here. Errors will occur and there is no way to get around this.

    Now, give this a thought– not everyone has the ability in terms of the resources or the knowledge base to fight a ticket as you evidently do. What do you think happens to the people who are caught in error? Are you willing to throw them to the wolves in the name of avoiding the problem?

  53. No One says:

    So, I just re-read your first post– and realized what was really bothering me. First, your opinion that the public at large is too stupid to know what’s good for it. While the actions of a few may show that, it’s a dangerous road to go down, especially when it’s evidently echoed by the government and we’re talking public policy. When a government, (of which you are apparently a member of) begins to show contempt for its citizens, bad things happen quickly. History has borne that out time and time again.

    Second, it’s interesting that you are specifically aware that this system is revenue-based, and that it takes the place of a tax that might otherwise be assessed– and yet you are ok with it. “Let the idiots pay,” you say. The implication of that is …”so I don’t have to!” Again, this is a treacherous and slippery slope we’re looking at here– what you’re talking about is the willful handing off of your burdens on another segment of the populace. This segment cannot shirk the load once it is placed upon them, as the force of the law is against them. So in effect you (and others like you) are willing to use the power of law enforcement to subjugate others for your own personal benefit. Think about it.

  54. Scott says:

    Hmmmm…”Avoidance vs Confrontation”….Lets all think about that argument….It was an intelligent discussion on both sides.

  55. WorkingStiff says:

    Let’s see…your little “protest” delays my beginning of a beautiful weekend because a mob of you are upset about traffic cameras (btw…your signs sucked..I guessed your issue…) want to wrap yourselves in the flag and pretend you are accomplishing something by irritating working joe’s like myself?

    Where have you and your patriotism been while a million Iraqi’s have been killed in our name? I think you were absent while the safety of our nation’s food supply has been compromised time and time again. Didn’t hear you weighing in as our treasury has been drained or wall street executives taking our hard-earned dollars.

    Yet here you are because of some cameras??? Are you kidding me??? What do you think delaying me is going to do to further your cause. I’ll tell you—Nothing. You would be so much more effective by writing letters to the editor or challenging the cameras in court (for example).

    fools….

  56. Chrystie says:

    Dont hate! We have been here for our military, country and state. Where have you been? You have nothing better to do than hate? At least we stand for something we believe in un like you!!!

  57. Redflex Corporate says:

    Obey.

    Do not dissent.

    We have your best interests in mind.

    Go back to your regularly scheduled programming.

    There is nothing to see here, there are no demonstrations or protests.

  58. No One says:

    WorkingStiff-

    Who, exactly are you speaking to when you say “I didn’t hear you” doing this, that or the other? Interesting that in the couple of days since the protest, you suddenly went from not knowing anything about the people behind the site (since you had to guess at the issue) to knowing everything about everyone, so that you can categorically state their position on any number of other unrelated subjects!

    You think your causes are more important? Perhaps they are. But your insinuation that these issues are somehow being overlooked in favor of the camera issues is absolutely ridiculous! The fact that “a million iraqis” half a world away are now dead has absolutely, positively, less-than-nothing to do with the issue here.

    You want to push your political agenda, feel free to start up your own website and/or “write a letter to the editor.” But don’t try to insinuate that because someone else is actually DOING something for a cause they care about that your issues are somehow neglected because of it.

    I wasn’t at that protest, nor any others for that matter, but I would have been were I not at work– yes, I too am a “working stiff.” However, as a frequent visitor to this site and one who would be protesting if time allowed, I would assume your comments are applicable to me, and I must say that the fact is you have no clue what my position on any of those issues might be, and I’ll thank you for not putting words in my mouth.

  59. j says:

    just by listening to ians writing there is no reason to respond to him his reasoning changes with the wind. he is a self serving narcisist who is lying and u only feed his ego by responding to him.

  60. Jasper says:

    http://www.abrutis.com/video-lunettes+anti+paparazzi-11937.html

    I think the cameras could be defeated using some low cost Infrared LEDs. The video cool and some research shows that the camera would pick up glare from the Infrared LEDs. As far as I know, it’s not illegal to wear ugly sun glasses! 🙂

  61. I find it interesting NoOne that you had to mention leaving the lesser to the wolves for your own self benefit.

    Lets think about this one for a moment: Do you send food or money to help the starving citizens of Darfur? Do you actually adopt a homeless individual and help him back onto his/her feet? Do you send money or donate anything to help the AIDS prevention cause in Africa? Do you do anything of the like? Probably not. So, you along with the greater population of America, don’t give a crap. So, before posing yourself as “Mr. I care about the lesser and wouldn’t throw them to the wolves,” consider the bigger picture first and judge yourself before making a half-assed comment like that.

    Secondly, here’s another thought – is it a good possibility that the State had to put up those cameras because it was a cost effective method to generate revenue because its people are so resistant on paying taxes that the State direly needs? So your children can get free education all the way through high school which is a luxury in many countries, including Mexico. At the same time, has the thought of the demand and need to maintain the State’s infrastructure intact and safe for everybody to use ever crossed? That crap costs money! Think about it. If you want more, and more and more, you pay for it! Hello? Nothing’s free! The government manages it for you. It’s your damn fault that you didn’t demand accountability of how the money is spent, that goes for myself the greater part of America too. Oh also, having the luxury of having a very superior and respectable Armed Forces with the equipment they need to give freedom to a bunch of people we don’t really care about or never posed a real risk to us at all so you can whine about a bunch of cameras that you can easily avoid by not speeding, as Ian is repeatedly saying.

    How about a real scam – Why do direct government workers have to pay taxes? People who are directly paid by the government, have to pay 1/4 to 1/3 of their paychecks back to the same folks who paid them in the first place only to get it back then pay taxes on it once again and again and again?

    I noticed Helldigger mentioned a few examples, unfortunately they are very specific examples and not a broad set of examples. Helldigger, sorry to burst your bubble but, not everybody is as perfect as you Helldigger or as knowledgable. If people were like you Helldigger, this would would have been a much better place. But, unfortunately, there are winners and losers. As there is good and bad and unfortunately, the smart and stupid. The funny part of that is, even the smart folks can be stupid too and the stupid, occasionally, be smart.

    Helldigger, in your response to Ian with the neighbor with the 4 kids that got caught in the same trap… That tells me of nothing more than 4 kids who should have known better. Regardless of being under the influence or not, or being macho, or anything else. At best, you don’t know what actually happened. They could have been texting away for all we know. They weren’t neither smart, nor stupid. They were lucky. That’s all. Lucky to have you bail them out with some advice. That’s it, nothing special.

  62. Joe says:

    hellraiser – my gosh. Your neighbor’s kids got caught, one time each. Wow, that’s not stupid. Thats 4 levels of stupid.

    If nature had its way, those 4 kids would have made a predator very happy!

  63. Bob says:

    I would like to have an honest vote of how many people against the cameras have been caught speeding by them, which btw is breaking the law. I bet its around 80 to 90% of you. Everyone is saying that there freedom is being taken away and that its a fraud. Should we rid DPS of setting up speed traps as well so people can have their freedom of blowing by at 100mph on the 101? How about we ban DPS all together! You all say that we should put more cops on the freeway but we would have to add hundreds to catch everyone speeding its just not realistic. The law is the law and speeding is breaking it. The cameras are not sneaky and move around overnight or pop out when you speed. They stay in one place and have multiple signs before each camera so if you are paying half attention you would slow down. Don’t get me wrong I still speed down the freeway but am smart enough to know where the cameras are or look for the signs. I don’t’ understand anyone that gets caught. Shouldn’t you be paying attention to the road? I like the cameras, I think it gets some of these horrible AZ drivers to pay more attention. I bet if they changed the trigger speed to 20mph over the limit we would still have people complain. I moved from Florida where there were red light/speeding cameras at many intersections and the people of the city welcomed them because of all the idiots speeding and running the lights and causing sometimes fatal accidents. It does make a person think twice before blowing through a light just to save time. Are you people on this site against those as well or just the freeway ones? Wouldn’t that be hypocritical if you are not against both?? Haven’t some red light cameras been at AZ intersections for over 5 years now? Why wasn’t anyone complaining or holding protest against those if one camera is such a big fraud?? The cameras have not affected me and if I were to get caught it would be my fault for speeding, sure no one likes to get a ticket but what is the difference if a cop pulled me over for speeding? Is the cop wrong for pulling me over? You people that complain are amusing. Why don’t you have protests right before the cameras to have people slow down and not get flashed which would then deny the companies from getting any money and put them out of business? You could have the protest right next to the signs already up saying to slow down. I don’t know much about the cameras but a friend was telling me that all pictures and videos from the camera are reviewed by the Police Dept of the city and DPS, is that true? Doesn’t really sound like a fraud to me if the Police is reviewing someone breaking the law. Why stop with the cameras on the freeways, we should expand the site to ban all cameras in the grocery stores, Walmarts, Targets, gas stations, movie theaters, and anywhere I would work at!! I know you guys will argue that the surveillance cameras send you a fine in the mail but they are there for the same reason. To prevent people from breaking the law.

  64. Helldigger says:

    “Traffic rules account for most of the contact by average citizens with law enforcement and the courts. Enforcement of laws which are widely perceived as unreasonable and unfair generates disrespect and even contempt toward those who make and enforce those laws.”
    The Appellate Department, in People vs. Goulet

    In AZ, the draconian measures to generate revenue is due to the lack of fiscal responsibility.

    Entrapment, rigged courts and fradulent citations has bred malcontent from the citizenry.

    If you like that, and you like the cameras, that is totally up to you.

    The general public has contempt for a taxation system, which has no representation.

    Don’t speed, and you won’t get caught is a good stratagy.

    When you get trapped and are forced to pay a fine, because the courts are designed to deny your 4th ammendment right to face your accuser, then contempt it is.

    Once you go through this system, you will have contempt too.

  65. Joe says:

    Bob,

    They have paragraphs over in Australia? You might consider utilizing some.

  66. j says:

    bob if u pay any attention the speeds on these freeways change back and forth from 55 to 65 and there are more signs anouncing photo enforcement than speed limit signs and u almost never see speed limit signs near photo enforcement signs. why is that? also speed limits are set to low in the absence of photo enforcement traffic generally moves about 70 to 75. another question if florida is so great why dont u move back to florida? and for the record i have never been caught by photo enforcement. another thing is most people who get tickets from these things ignore them. if u quit worrying about the faster traffic and stayed over to the right when driving on the freeways which u should probably avoid and stay on surface streets the freeways would be safer because you wouldnt be impeding the flow of traffic.

  67. j says:

    also dps dosnt set speed traps they are illegal. BOB u should probably move back to florida where the freeways are safe.

  68. No One says:

    Catbert– you have some valid points, to be sure. However, both you (and the original poster) are speaking about specific items and specific instances, while simultaneously painting with such a broad stroke that all of middle class America is coloring your vision. Neither you nor he know who I am, much less what I do or do not support, nor where I do or do not volunteer- but, as I said to the previous poster, that is neither here nor there when it comes to the issue at hand which is the cameras.

    Jumping off topic for a second, since everyone seems to be so interested in my personal life, I’ll tell you. You are correct in that I do not directly assist with the starving people in Darfur, nor do I directly support AIDS in Africa. (I do not know many people in my everyday life who have). I am a bit geographically challenged when it comes to such causes, and in addition to the fact that I am not exactly in a position to do anything of substance monetarily, I am not sure that throwing money at such things is the best course of action. However, I do volunteer closer to home. Indeed I have directly assisted the homeless and have volunteered at any number of nonprofit organizations, including Phoenix Children’s Hospital, the desert botanical gardens, and a soup kitchen, among others. I don’t do it as often as I should, but that’s something that I will have to make my own peace with.

    Now that we have got that out of the way, I am not trying to say that I am better than anyone else, nor that the cause of the cameras is more important than any of the worthy causes mentioned previously. Quite the contrary. I realize there are “better” people out there than I, and “better” causes in life than this one issue. But, I do what I can, where I can– and as I pointed out previously, time spent on this issue in no way denigrates any of the other issues mentioned or prevents interested parties from pursuing activities related to them.

    Getting back on topic, my point in the comment of “throwing them to the wolves” was in reference to his attitude of -I’m taken care of, so everyone else can go jump in a lake- despite the fact that he evidently realized the unfairness and problems inherent with this system. He had dealt with it numerous times, and apparently had the ability to get out of it. I was pointing out that not everyone does, and so to openly promote an unfair system such as that effectively leaves them out in the cold. Was it harsh? Yes. Did it get his attention and make him think? I don’t know, but I hope so. And, to be fair, you must admit that much as your post was a response to my perceived “I don’t give a crap” attitude, mine was to his.

    The other thing about that comment was that it was aimed at giving him a different perspective on the issue- an issue which we weren’t that far apart on. It’s not like anyone could or would say “I’m for AIDS” or “I like starving people in Africa”- nor is it likely that an individual, presumably living here in the US, could personally make a difference in those issues. Cameras, he took the time to look up the site and post here a couple of times, and has the insight to know that it really isn’t about safety– so he’s already at least partially on the same page as I am. He might actually get a different perspective, and he does have the potential to make a direct difference on this issue.

    Lastly, on the tax issue– if you look through previous posts, I have actually posted previosuly that I would verymuch prefer a tax to the cameras. I’m no dummy, I realize the government costs money, and (unlike many here, who are entitled to their opinion) do not believe the shortfall can be overcome solely with budget cuts. As such, I realize the cash needs to come from somewhere, but I do not believe it is right for our government to engage in such subterfuge and push this through without a vote and without a clear plan on the many, many shortfalls. Meanwhile many of our rights are being tossed aside and all the while they are effectively lying to us, telling us it is about the safety, or some such nonsense. Tax us if you must, but call it a tax. It’s honest, it’s upfront, I can budget for it, my rights are not injured so badly, and it doesn’t place law enforcement and the courts in such a conflict of interest. In summary, I believe intrigue like the cameras is contrary to everything the government ought to be, and I believe it will only get worse if we allow it so we need to put a stop to it. If that’s not a worthy cause, I don’t know what is!

  69. No One says:

    whoops. I apparently got workingstiff confused w/Ian. Sorry bout that! 🙂 Hopefully you can still follow my train of thought.

  70. Helldigger says:

    “Helldigger, in your response to Ian with the neighbor with the 4 kids that got caught in the same trap… At best, you don’t know what actually happened. They could have been texting away for all we know. They weren’t neither smart, nor stupid. They were lucky. That’s all. Lucky to have you bail them out with some advice. That’s it, nothing special”

    They were not lucky, they were entrapped by a scam run by the state to generate revenue in response to the inability to stay within a budget. It is irresponsible to spend more than one takes in.

    I know exactly what happened, the kids were not texting away; they were not on the phone. They were driving into a trap.

    “Secondly, here’s another thought – is it a good possibility that the State had to put up those cameras because it was a cost effective method to generate revenue because its people are so resistant on paying taxes that the State direly needs?”

    The “People” are resistant to paying taxes because taxpaying citizens are overburdened with levies, to pay for government programs that support entitlements for those who pay no taxes at all or are unnecessary to start with.

    When government imposes taxes on behavior, then they have crossed the line. When they use technical surveillance, which measures behavior, based on specific actions with disregard to circumstance, and then set up scenarios where a greater number of people will be entrapped to raise revenue, it irritates the general pubic. When mailed citations are designed to intimidate the public into writing away their right to being served correctly and to rat out your family members, then those imposed taxes become dirty money. When the courts are rigged to deny you 4th amendment rights to face your accuser, then the State deserves contempt.

    “Do you send food or money to help the starving citizens of Darfur? Do you actually adopt a homeless individual and help him back onto his/her feet? Do you send money or donate anything to help the AIDS prevention cause in Africa? Do you do anything of the like? Probably not. So, you along with the greater population of America, don’t give a crap.”

    The reality is that volunteerism is at an all time high in Arizona. Charity is at a premium with this economy, but people are still donating to causes in droves. Your sanctimonious assertion that photo fraud demonstrators don’t give a crap is wrong minded at best. Your assumptions as simply wrong.

    My neighbors , you know, the ones with the 4 kids that got entrapped , spent last weekend making 125 sack lunches and then distributed them to homeless families downtown. They paid for the food out of their own pocket.

    The people I hang with are that kind of person, what have you done lately?

  71. Joe says:

    They just installed a new PEZ on Southbound I-17 not far from Thomas. It was not there one day earlier. They work very fast.

  72. Numkene says:

    What I don’t understand is why you guys aren’t spreading the word on the one thing that would pretty much guarantee the cameras being taken down.

    Think about it. What keeps the cameras up and running? Speeders and Red-Light Runners.

    Now what would happen to those cameras if people stopped speeding and stopped running red lights? That’s right, no cash flow = no cameras. Easy cheese.

    If the cameras aren’t doing what they were made to do, then they’d be taken down, right?. So wouldn’t rendering them ineffective would be the best course of action?

    Seems to be the easiest solution in the world. Convenient for everyone. Requires no monitoring by the authorities whatsoever. And the only people that would get caught by the cameras, would be either the ones that want to keep them, or the one’s that don’t mind forking their money over to the government and the camera companies.

    It would probably be even more effective than ballot signings and protests, in my opinion. I could be wrong, but shouldn’t it be worth a try?

    I’ve never had my picture taken by a speed camera. They haven’t gotten a single cent from me. They don’t have any pictures of me or my license plate to keep on file somewhere and I ain’t contributing to their cash flow in any way. I’m doing my part, and I aim to keep it that way. More of you should do the same if you really want to get rid of them.

  73. Redflex Corporate says:

    Exactly Numkene, protest em’ via compliance!

    War is peace.

    Ignorance is strength.

    and, most importantly:

    Freedom is slavery!

  74. Laura says:

    I crunched some the numbers on the cameras in Tempe that issued almost 75,000 tickets in 2008. I think the statistics really show how preposterous the system is…

    More here:
    http://www.phx411.com/wordpress/2009/01/15/a-single-tempe-speed-camera-catches-53218-violators/

  75. Glyph says:

    Numkene, you make a great point. If everyone started driving the speed limit and stopped running redlight tomorrow, these cameras and the companies that operate them would be put out of work.

    But let’s remember that the companies that operate these cameras are COUNTING on these violations, and so is the State of Arizona, who is counting on camera revenue to help balance the state budget.

    Redflex and ATS operate with no oversight. There’s no independant agency dedicated to measuring the accuracy of the equipment or the integrity of the people operating it. When a van on the side of the freeway only puts up one sign instead of two as per state law, DPS isn’t out there ticketing the driver for failing to do so. When a city shortens the yellow light interval to below the state minimum at an intersection with cameras, thereby creating more red light runners, there is no agency that fines the city for doing so.

    Given the lack of integrity demonstrated by the people who operate these cameras, it’s not enoughto simply obey the speed limit. As revenues drop and the companies (and state) become increasingly desperate, they’ll start fudging, then outright lying about drivers’ speeds. At that point, it’s the camera’s word against yours, and you can bet the judge won’t entertain the idea that the camera operator could be lying.

    That’s why these cameras need to go.

  76. No One says:

    Numkene-

    As I alluded to earlier in this very thread, if we stopped speeding and cut their revenue they’d merely tack on additional things for the cameras to look for. Like license plate holders.

  77. DON'T TREAD ON ME says:

    Guys once again great show on the US 60 on Friday. You guys saw me top down, giving the thumbs up and honking my horn which caused others to honk and create some noise.

    I won’t lie, I speed almost every day. I go 4-9 miles over the speed limit on the freeway. Yep I sure do. I am not killing anyone doing it, it’s called following the flow of traffic or leading the way for others.

    This camera stuff to me isn’t about catching me speed, if you catch me and I am guilty I will live up to my responsibility.

    To me this is all about FREEDOM, RIGHTS and EVASION.

    I didn’t give the state the right to take my picture, I didn’t give the state the right to film me. If they want to take my picture and film me, let’s make a porno and have a big orgy. Let the state market the film and make some real money. The porn industry is a 1.4 billion dollar a year industry. Why chase people to get money, when you can get them to give it to you with pleasure.

    Of course I am pardon the pun “SCREWING AROUND” but hey I have that right don’t I?

    If this state truly wanted to make money and make a boat load of it, legalize gambling and not just for the Tribes who have a monopoly on it. Take a page from Nevada and legalize it. Take a page from California and allow poker parlors.

    Anyway, keep up the good fight all and remember one thing:

    “FREEDOM has never come FREE, there has always been a cost to achieve it”

  78. Chrystie says:

    Dont tread on me – you have a awesome point, and thanks for your support!! You are awesome! And so are theothers who come and support us.

  79. Bob says:

    Numkene, good point its was the point I was trying to make but seemed to make J and Joe angry. I was looking more for some good points from you guys not stupid and childish remarks about Australia or telling me to move back where you came from. J I never once complained about the speed on the freeways or the people going faster than the flow of traffic, I am one of those drivers I just pay enough attention to slow down just below the triggering speed. You are right speed traps are illegal but before the cameras you would have a DPS bike cops camped out under a overpass with his radar gun ready to pull anyone going over 10mph. They did it up until the contruction blocked them from doing so on the 101.

  80. Doc says:

    DON’T TREAD ON ME-Man you hit th’ nail right on th’ head! Seriously I agree with you 300%! If all these idiots (cops & politicians…) want is revenue, then put down your inhibitions, the way you manage to put down our Constitution, & let’s get th’ state of Az outta’ debt in LESS than 2 years! Wouldn’t THAT be a thorn in our former totalitarian governor’s butt?!?!?

    Remember…F R E E D O M ! ! !-Doc from Prescott

    P.S.-I’ll bet the crime rate, statewide, goes in th’ toilet too! If we’re all buzy doin’ th’ horizontal bop, nobody’ll be committin’ any crime!!! This idea just gets better & better!!!

  81. Numkene says:

    “Exactly Numkene, protest em’ via compliance!” posted by Redflex Corporate

    I think you’re delving into a principle that is a bit out of the camera fraud league.

    I could understand your statement if it was regarding something significant like segregation or abortion laws, because in those situations, compliance would be seen as something cowardly or passive, and the opposing parties could easily razz you about it and counter you with convincing rebuttals.

    But when it comes to camera fraud?… come on, you can’t possibly say anything bad about protesting by following traffic laws that existed LONG before the first traffic camera was put up. What’s so horrible about continuing to do what you should have been doing all along? That’s just plain ridiculous.

    Now, if you have a problem with the speed limit being too low, I could see where you might have a argument, but that is a whole different issue AWAY from camera fraud. Especially when you can still go 10 mph over the limit and not get your picture taken.

    —————————————–

    And to those that think the cameras will just start looking for offenses other than speeding and red light running, or that the camera people will just start lying and cheating to keep their revenue up…

    What other traffic laws could be caught on camera other than speeding or red light running? Failure to use your blinker? Not using the proper following distance? Having a tail light out? In a state where Drivers Ed class isn’t even required? Yeah…right. I’ll be buying my winning lotto tickets on that day.

    And if the camera companies ever started cheating or lying to get paid? The justice system would be so inundated with speed camera cases, that the courts would have them taken down in 3 seconds flat.

    There would be thousands and thousands of people fighting against their camera tickets because they know they hadn’t done anything wrong. People would start walking into court with digital photos and/or video of their dashboards so that they could sue the camera companies into non-existence.

    One call to 3-On-Your-Side, or any other investigative news show and the camera’s would be gone within the week.

    That’s probably the biggest reason why we are having so much trouble fighting against the camera’s as they exist right now: The majority of people caught by them ARE actually breaking the law. It’s tough to fight against something that’s pretty much doing what it’s intended to do.

    So I’ll stand by my suggested method of protest – unless someone can come up with a good reason for it not to work – but so far, it seems like the most logical course of action to me.

    I’m sure some of you have different opinions, but I guess that’s why they have these types of discussion boards, right😛

  82. Joe says:

    Numkene wrote:

    “What other traffic laws could be caught on camera other than speeding or red light running? Failure to use your blinker? Not using the proper following distance? Having a tail light out? In a state where Drivers Ed class isn’t even required? Yeah…right. I’ll be buying my winning lotto tickets on that day.”

    You forget that the state of Arizona has a revenue model largely based on sales tax, not property taxes. The drop in revenue due to economic downturn has hit the state VERY hard. For example, they’re telling ASU to expect a 40% budget cut. In times like this, it’s very easy to be influenced to find solutions that can easily be flipped onto the shoulders of “lawbreakers” like those caught by the cameras. You fail to see that these cameras could easily be turned into a virtual “strip mining” situation. And with cameras placed every 1.5 miles on I-10, that reality is not far-off. Napolitano was able to find a quick-fix to a large chunk of her budget troubles with one company (Redflex).

    None of this technology is particularly new. This same kind of system could easily have been employed 15-20 years ago (albeit with slower data transfer rates). The reason it did not take-hold back then is because (back then) liberty was more precious to people.

  83. No One says:

    So Numkene–

    Have you read the latest news about them having live, streaming video of every single car that goes by? This means that your statement that they haven’t ever taken a picture of you, and that your license plate is not on file… is now invalidated. Assuming you’ve driven by a camera, you’ve been snapped and you’re in their database.

    And as to the cameras being repurposed for other items, do you really think that they will let their multi-million dollar system fail simply because people slow down? The shift to other revenue streams has already started. Did you not know they are photo-enforcing the license plate frames? I ask you, is that an issue “worthy” of photo enforcement? It’s not related to safety at all, and to my knowledge it’s never been an issue in the entire time the state’s had motor vehicles… but now, all of a sudden, it is. Why do you think this suddenly came up?

    As to what’s next on the list of photo-enforceable items, why NOT enforce a broken taillight, tailgating, or changing lanes without signalling? What’s to stop them? Are those not illegal? Are any of these less of a “public safety” issue than a license plate holder?

  84. geez says:

    No one,
    they are photo enforcing the no license plate frame? I bet you can’t prove it, because it aint happenin. But as usual, ya’ll like to state ‘facts’ without actually knowing what your talking about. Time and time again ya’ll get nailed on things like that.

  85. DON'T TREAD ON ME says:

    Thanks Chrystie and Doc…

    Truth is always worth the price of admission.

    The state won’t sell you a ticket, but will certainly give you one.

  86. No One says:

    Geez– apparently you missed the 5th of January post?

    https://camerafraud.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/plate-frames-to-be-photo-enforced/

    and yes, before you point out the obvious, I did make a mistake, they are not currently photo-enforced (so sue me!) But the very fact that they even considered it, that it even made it to a discussion, only highlights the fact that a) they could do so at basically anytime, and b) there is some impetus for them to do so. (If it was completely irrelevant and not an option, it would not have been put to a vote!)

    I do not know the outcome immediately, but trust that before calling me on my mistake that you doublechecked. At the moment, though my dinner is ready so…

  87. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    hey… if you have the technology… put it to work!!!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: